Ok, just found a potential answer from 6 years ago. It refined my question. When a "move" option is executed in a filter does it include "delete from inbox" also? What are the implications with IMAP/Gmail?

Thanx

Still having issues, sometime Gmail will put an "Inbox" label on mail and sometimes not. Filter will only run on root inbox folder automatically. Is there a way to point the filter at the All Mail folder instead?

re :Filter will only run on root inbox folder automatically.

Correct. That is the only folder that gets an auto filter on download. It has always been that way and no you cannot do an auto filter on any other folder. The 'All Mail' folder is not just incoming new mail.

In webmail - on server - Gmail will apply a label of 'Inbox' to all incoming mail with the exception of emails that the server deemed as Spam/Junk. Those emails get a 'Spam' label.

If email did have Inbox label, but gmail removes the 'Inbox' label, it is because you applied a filter to move or delete emails. Anything you do in Thunderbird imap account effects how gmail interprets your actions.

re :when Tbird applies filter to move message strikethrough copy remains in inbox.

Pop accounts do not work like Imap accounts. Pop can only access server Inbox to download a copy which it stores on your computer and you can choose to leave a copy on the server or not.

Imap accounts are designed to display whatever is stored on the server. The folders in an imap account should never be regarded as a separate independent copy because all imap folders synchronise with server folders of same name. They are like one and the same sharing same view.

Gmail stores all emails, sent, received, archived - everything in the 'All Mail' folder. Gmail understand this is a totally useless method for users as they cannot easily find anything. So gmail applies 'labels' to all emails it receives (the labels are like filter tags) then uses those labels to offer a virtual display of the email in a 'folder - style' view. This means you can have an email stored in 'All Mail' and see the same email in 'Inbox' and 'Important' folders.

In the imap account, those 'labels' are real files and we call them Folders. Most people never subscribe to see the 'All Mail' folder because it is just a complete copy of everything you have in other folders, and as it can be a massive folder, it can consume space and performance issues. Unlike the 'All Mail' folder on the server which displays the various 'labels' with each Subject. No label information is stored in the 'All Mail' folder in the imap account because only the server uses labels.

If you delete an email from the 'Inbox' - it should get put into the gmail 'Trash' folder - as per

• Account Settings > Server Settings for the account.
• 'when I delete a mesasge'
• Select 'Move it to this folder':
• select the server folder 'Trash or maybe it's called 'Bin' on gmail account'

• If you are seeing a 'strikethrough' then perhaps you have the 'just mark it as deleted' option. You are not instructing it to go to the Trash.

When email gets put into the server Trash folder then gmail sees this as a command to remove all labels and put into TRash - you want to remove all copies of email, so it deleted the copy from the 'All Mail' folder. Then every 30 days it empties the Trash automatically.

If email is not put into the gmail Trash/Bin folder then gmail understands you do not want to delete the original, so it only removes the 'Inbox' label - basically gmail archive the email. It's still in 'All Mail'. This occurs all time with POP mail accounts because there is no means of putting deleted emails into a server Trash folder.

If you have a filter that 'moves' an email from the imap Inbox folder to another Imap folder eg:Bills in same account then gmail removes the 'Inbox' label and applies a 'Bills' label.

If you are moving an email out of the account - from the imap 'Inbox' to a folder in the 'Local Folders' mail account, then you are in effect deleting the email off the server. This is usually only done if you are reaching a full quota on server and need to delete emails off the server, but retain a copy. But if you have the setting to just strikethrough/mark as deleted and not properly delete by putting the server Trash folder, then gmail obeys your instruction - Remove label - archive and store in All Mail.

I would strongly advise the filter uses 'Copy' to Local Folders folder because if something goes wrong then at least you have not lost the original. Also, you would need to be very certain you had downloaded full copies and not just headers, otherwise you could be storing a load of useless headers and no contents in the Local Folders account. Imap accounts can download full copies or only headers and it can do it on a per folder basis.

Do This:

• Check the Account Settings > Server Settings for gmail imap account.
• 'when I delete a mesasge'
• Select 'Move it to this folder':
• select: 'Trash or maybe it's called 'Bin' on gmail account'

Message Storage:

• Select 'Clean up (expunge) inbox on Exit'

That means compact the Inbox to remove all old traces of moved emails, so file is kept in good order. You can choose to empty the TRash, but gmail will auto do this periodically anyway and it does give you the opportunity to rescue an email you deleted in error.

Thanx, still have more issues.... I created an IMAP folder to test with and named it Mike's IMAP Crap, somehow this folder has designated itself as a trash folder. It keeps downloading 5000+ messages into it as soon as I select it. If I delete the folder will all the messages still be in All Mail?

And...the server folders [IMAP]/Trash and [IMAP]/Sent do not seem to have corresponding folders in Tbird. [IMAP]/Trash has some very old messages I am saving. What are these folders?

Thanx, still have more issues.... I created an IMAP folder to test with and named it Mike's IMAP Crap, somehow this folder has designated itself as a trash folder. It keeps downloading 5000+ messages into it as soon as I select it. If I delete the folder will all the messages still be in All Mail?

You did not mention what you did in order to test it? To test what precisely?

Gmail works in a very specific manner, so for certain actions to work you have to use specific settings. Only you can change the designated Trash folder, but I'm advising you to choose the gmail Trash folder otherwise you will never delete emails off the server.

• Check the Account Settings > Server Settings for gmail imap account.
• 'when I delete a message'
• Select 'Move it to this folder':
• select: 'Trash or sometimes it's called 'Bin' on gmail account'

• re :It keeps downloading 5000+ messages into it as soon as I select it.

That's because on the server you have the same identical folder and it contains 5000+ messages. However, you do not say what those 5000+ messages represent - are they previously deleted emails?

re: 'Mike's IMAP Crap' folder That is just a label as far as gmail is concerned. I have no idea whether the 5000+ emails are good emails or emails you have deleted. Put them into the foldre where they are supposed to be. Then unsubscribe from seeing the Mike's IMAP Crap folder. Then access webmail account and delete that [gmail] Mike's IMAP Crap label.

And...the server folders [IMAP]/Trash and [IMAP]/Sent do not seem to have corresponding folders in Tbird. [IMAP]/Trash has some very old messages I am saving. What are these folders?

All the following is about the webmail account.

In webmail, if you see [IMAP]/Trash and [IMAP]/Sent labels then these are not the default folders used by gmail. These are folders you have created and should not use because it will get you very much confused between your creations and the default folders that gmail will use because of the names.

re:[IMAP]/Trash has some very old messages I am saving.

Why would you save specific emails in a folder called Trash ? Everyone understands that Trash is something you do not want. Any way, the point is this, you need to rename that label so it gets called [IMAP]/Old Store - you cannot use the word Trash because you will not know the difference between the real Trash and the fake Trash. It's asking for trouble. Then make sure the 'show in imap' checkbox is selected.

re :[IMAP]/Sent Do not know if you have any emails in this folder. If they are old sent emails either put them in the webmail 'Sent Mail' folder or rename that folder to say [IMAP]/Old Sent. Then make sure the 'show in imap' checkbox is selected.

Back in Thunderbird

• Right click on Imap account name folder in Folder Pane and select 'Subscribe'
• Select the 'Old Store' and the 'Old Sent' folders and click on 'Subscribe'

Sorry for the imprecision, much of this is still somewhat out of focus for me. When I said "test" I was testing the Gmail response so I could learn. As for the [IMAP]/Trash and [IMAP]/Sent folders, I did not set them up....they just appeared. And I did not put anything in them. Those old messages I am saving just appeared there. I have deleted the [IMAP]/Sent as it does not seem to serve a purpose as you indicated. The Tbird subscribe option was a revelation!! That makes things clearer!! My Trash folder was not checked. It is now! I now see an [IMAP] section in the Tbird tree that corresponds to the Labels in Gmail.

What are Categories? Other than a source of confusion, the tags in gmail do not seem to mean or do anything and are very annoying.

Re: Tbird filters....you advised to copy rather than move. I understand you are concerned with inadvertent loss, possibly due to a misconfigured filter. But, ISTM that the filter operates on the Inbox and not the AllMail. Would a "lost" message would still be in AllMail? If I use the copy function then my Inbox becomes a pretty close mirror of the AllMail folder and less useful as an Inbox.

My activity log indicates Unknown source folder. (Failure).

What does this mean?

re :What are Categories? Other than a source of confusion, the tags in gmail do not seem to mean or do anything and are very annoying.

That is something only gmail webmail account can use. Gmail does not make them available for imap accounts. Yes, I agree they are a useless. In webmail account Settings > Show more settings Select 'labels' tab Categories: I clicked on all the 'hide' options.

then in same area I clicked on the 'Inbox' tab - see image below it has a Categories section for Inbox I unchecked all of these: Promotions, Social, Updates, Forums Leave 'Primary' because you cannot deselect that option.

Please make sure you do select the correct 'Trash' folder.

In gmail there is only one server default Trash folder which for some people eg: me may be called Bin. Any label which shows as [Gmail]/name of label is not a default folder. So if you have a [Gmail]/Trash then it is not the default gmail Trash folder. So you must rename that folder in order to not be confused - best renamed in webmail account.

I'm posting an image I created a while ago. See below. I created a 'label' called 'Junk' which shows as [Gmail]/Junk. I do not use it - it was just created to show what a label looked like if not a default label.

Gmail in my case has a default trash folder called Bin and it is shown in the list as one of the default folders - it does not have a [Gmail]/ - that is only used for additional folders. If you have a [Gmail]/Trash and you did not create it in the webmail account and you did not create it in the imap account which would have auto inserted it into the webmail then perhaps it was imported from another account which migrated to gmail.

In Thunderbird imap gmail account - in my case - I have the gmail account settings > server settings set up to move deleted email to 'Bin on imap gmail account' because that is the server default trash folder as shown in my webmail account.

Thanx for your patience. The above has been quite helpful!! I am proficient at over-complication! One of the big keys was your suggestion on "subscribing". I had no idea that option existed and it really clarified things for me.

How long is mail kept by default in the various folders? How often should I archive them? I have chosen stick with the "Move" command on my Tbird filters and move messages to Local Folders. My inbox gets too confusing if I just copy them. This does not seem to delete them off of the Gmail server as I still see them in All Mail.

I see that my All Mail folder is >10K pages. Is there a management strategy for old emails? A duplicate checker would be nice!!! All appears to be somewhat stable now that I have a better understanding of what to expect.

re : I have chosen stick with the "Move" command on my Tbird filters and move messages to Local Folders.....This does not seem to delete them off of the Gmail server as I still see them in All Mail.

The 'Move to a folder in Local Folders' command is not a 'Delete and move to gmail imap Trash' command. So the email is not going to be deleted off the server.

The email is removed from the 'Inbox' because that is your instruction. Gmail sees you have not put the email in the gmail Trash folder, so it assumes you do not want to delete the email, it assumes you do not want the email in the 'Inbox' so it removes the 'Inbox' label. That means the email is still on server in the 'All Mail' folder. As you subscribe to see the 'All Mail' folder in the imap account, it means you get to see a complete copy of everything on the server. You will see all emails received, sent and archived ...all of them in the 'All Mail' folder like a big soup all mixed up in one pot.

Gmail server only has one folder - it is the 'All Mail' folder. It contains everything. Gmail can offer to add labels to emails to create virtual views of those emails in a sort of 'folder' type display, but all the emails are in the 'All Mail' folder. So in webmail account all those 'folder-style' label names offer a more logical way of viewing emails eg: Inbox, Sent etc. Each being the result of a virtual display of emails with a tag.

Gmail says: If email in 'All Mail' folder is tagged with the label called 'Inbox' then let us see a virtual copy of email in the 'Inbox'.

Therefore Gmail says there are two things that can be removed: 1: a label 2: an email

You may wish to remove a label but not delete an email - eg: Archive an email. When gmail archives an email, it removes all labels and keeps the archived email in the 'All Mail' folder.

Gmail says To make sure there is no misunderstanding - only emails that are put into the gmail Trash folder will get deleted from the 'All Mail' folder.

Hence why I said 'COPY' the email to Local Folders' Then when you know you have a good copy, delete the email in imap Inbox and put it into the gmail imap Trash folder. It should put into imap gmail TRash automatically if the Account Settings are set up to do it.

re :How long is mail kept by default in the various folders?

Mail is kept in the various imap account folders until you move it out of the folder.

Exception: imap Trash and imap Spam folders.

If you do not manually empty those folders the gmail will auto empty those labels on the server (about every 30 days), so when you imap folder synchronises with server label of same name, it updates the imap folder to match what is on server. Some people have said to me - why did all my emails in the TRash get deleted ? Answer : you put email in Trash meaning you do not want the email, Gmail gives you about 30 days to recover the email, just in case you deleted in error - then gmail auto empties the TRash to recover space on server. Thunderbird imap folders can only show what is on the server. Any imap account should never be considered as a completely independent copy because it can only display what is on server.

re :How often should I archive them? That depends upon your point of view and it can be a different when using a gmail imap account.

In a gmail imap account, gmail sees 'Archive' to mean Remove all labels and keep in 'All Mail' folder. That might be suitable for you. But how can you tell what is archived and what is not archived when everything is all in one pot. If you want to keep stuff on server and never see it then it works ok if you do not subscribe to see 'All Mail'. Otherwise, if you subscribe to see 'All Mail' then it will remain listed in that folder. It's the same as moving a filtered email, just the labels get removed.

Alternative options: Some people create a folder for the year eg: Archive 2020 Then put all emails with a 2020 year date into that folder. Creating a new folder for each year. Some people do an archive once a year, so reset the Archive settings in the Account Settings to point to the new folder, so when you click on Archive it goes to respective folder.

Others just want to dump everything into one folder which can get a bit risky if that folder gets very large. Create a gmail imap folder called 'Archives' (OR in webmail account create a label called Archives and subscribe to see it) Set up Account Settings > Copies & Folders select checkbox 'keep message archives in: Select 'Other' and choose 'Archives on gmail account' At least this keeps them sorted as 'Archived'.

Gmail server does have a quota limit unless you purchase more.

I suppose you have to ask yourself...do you really need to keep a load of old emails?

Maybe there is the odd email which has some importance or significance which you do need to keep, but people do have a habit of hoarding stuff that's just general chit chat.

OK, we are getting there.....my wife and I share a pobox account which directs all email to the gmail after spam checks. My Tbird filters my mail and her Tbird filters her messages. AIUI Tbird can only poll the Imap inbox and not the All Mail? So, I have to set up my folder, separate from the Inbox on my machine. And, set up similarly on her machine. So, if I use the Copy command for both, the Imap inbox remains a mirror of All Mail without the Sent messages. If I use Move command it is "removed" from the Inbox to the designated folder.

This journey began because I was using POP3 and if my Tbird polled the server before my wife, even though it left the messages on the server for 30 days, it would mark the message as "read" and not let my wife's Tbird download it. So, with Imap, to keep her access to a "fresh" message I cannot use the Move command to any message addressed to her. And, vice versa with her Tbird.

Does it matter whether I use Imap 'destination" folders? Or, local folders? How can I "jump" to the last page, or any page in All Mail? I am prolly going to filter by date and wholesale delete messages.

re :Does it matter whether I use Imap 'destination" folders? Or, local folders?

If you use imap destination folders then the move will put email into the selected imap folder. Let's pretend you have created a folder called 'Hubby Mail' This means you can subscribe to see the 'Hubby Mail' folder in Thunderbird, but your wife does not need to subscribe to see that folder. So she will not see that folder. Meaning if it was moved email from imap 'Inbox' into an imap folder called 'Hubby Mail'... You will see emails in that folder, but your wife will just see email disappear from Inbox.

Gmail sees this as a remove the 'Inbox' label and apply a 'Hubby Mail' label. Email is still in 'All Mail' because all emails are stored in that folder on the server. It needs to be in the 'All Mail' folder in order to allow it to be seen in the 'Hubby Mail' folder. So if both you and wife have subscribed to see 'All Mail' then all emails will still be visible to both of you in that 'All Mail' folder.

If you move to a folder in 'Local Folders' account: Gmail will remove the 'Inbox' label, so netiher you nor your wife will see that email in the imap 'Inbox' folder. But both of you will still see email in the 'All Mail' folder if both of you subscribe to see the 'All Mail' folder.

The only real difference is this: Moving to an imap folder means you and your wife have the choice of whether you want to see that folder via 'Subscribe', but email must remain in 'All Mail'. You cannot delete the email.

Moving to a Local Folder means only you see it in Local Folders, but email is still in 'All Mail'. This may may you need to perform an extra delete. If you want to delete that email once you have a good copy in Local Folders then you either have to delete it from 'All Mail' which is a pain to find emails OR do not use 'Move' - use 'Copy' in filter so it is easy to find and delete from the Inbox.

If you use a 'Local Folders' folder then you can delete that email off the server as you will have a copy stored on your computer that is totally independent of the server. If you use 'Copy' to Local Folders then the original email will still be in the 'Inbox', this means you can easily find it and then delete it so it goes to the gmail imap 'Trash' folder. Gmail will completely remove it when it auto empties that TRash folder.

Both you and your wife will see the email disappear from 'Inbox' and appear in 'Trash'. It will also disappear from the 'All Mail' folder.

If you use 'Move' to Local Folders, email is still in 'All Mail' folder, but because that 'All Mail' folder has everything then it a pain to find specific emails, but yes you can delete an email from the 'All Mail' folder. Please remember, if email is deleted from 'All Mail' then it is competely deleted off server and will not appear in any imap folder.

re :How can I "jump" to the last page, or any page in All Mail?

I'm now presuming you are logged on the gmail webmail account to see the 'All Mail' folder. You have selected the 'All Mail' folder. At the top on the right side it will say '1-50 of x ' (where x = number of pages.) The number range is followed by chevrons < > - those chevrons help you move one page at a time in either direction. If you hover the mouse pointer over the '1-50 of x ' then you will get a drop down option and it will have 'Oldest' highlighted - click on 'Oldest' and this will auto reverse the order meaning you are now looking at the last page.

That will give you the oldest date information.

You can also use the search options at the top of the list displayed. The 'Any Time' option is useful. Click on it to see drop down options. If you have oldest emails dating from eg: 2018 Then you could reduce the number of emails displayed by selecting 'Custom Range' Entering 01/01/2018 as start date and 31/12/2018 as end date. That will then only list all emails within that date range, reducing the number of pages.

The gmail 'All Mail' folder will tell you what 'labels' are applied, so if no labels then email was archived and this may help you to work out which emails you 'Moved' to Local Folders.

Sadly gmail does not provide an easy way to filter only email that have no labels of any description.

Please remember any email you delete from 'All Mail' will be completely deleted off server meaning it will also be deleted from any Imap folder in Thunderbird.

As I said - it is so much easier to 'Copy' emails to 'Local Folders' and then go back to Inbox and delete them OR just move to another subcribed imap folder.

Your help has been invaluable!! Thanx!! My wife just got a new windoze machine. I got the profile copied over. It seems to be having an issue getting all mail to the inbox where the filters run. I have used your advice and stuck with the "copy" command. All Mail is my master database, like my 'inbox" was in POP3. Mail that we want to save goes to a local folder as does all the filtered mail. But, I'm seeing new messages in All Mail that don't roll over to the IMAP inbox. Thoughts? Mike